#193 – Celebrating Apprenticeship Success w/ Dr Louise Sutton

 

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Full episode transcript: 

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Phil: Well. We're very honored to have Louise here for the, uh, sales Transformation podcast, but the, the theme for this podcast is going to be about, um, apprenticeships because it is the national, uh, apprenticeship week

This week. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so

yeah,

Louise, we'd just like to spend the first bit of the podcast reflecting a little on 2025 and, you know, how do we stand at the moment in terms of. Apprenticeships. Um, tell us what's been happening. Some of the highlights.

Louise: Gosh, well it was a big year, 2025 because, um, you know, it's a story of highs and. Lows, I suppose. Um, and the low being that the funding for the level seven apprenticeships was removed, um, by the government, or that kicked off, um, 1st of January this year, but the decision was made last year to, um, remove the funding for the level seven apprenticeships.

So, or at least for those who are over, uh, 21. So, which of course impacts the students, uh, the apprentices who are on our, our senior leader program. So that was a bit of a blow. Um, but if we think of the highs, um, you know, we have the two programs that we run. Um, so our B2B sales professional degree apprenticeship at level six, um, which we deliver with in partnership with Middlesex University.

And then we also have, um, the level seven senior sales leader. So we've customized the senior leader standard for sales leaders. Um, again, um, delivered in partnership with Middlesex University and last year was just fantastic. We've, um, been slowly building up the numbers in both programs and so, you know, we've had a record number of apprentices completing their endpoint assessments and then completing their degrees and some who've gone on to do, um, the postgraduate diploma and the master's top up from the level seven.

Um. And it's just wonderful. It is always wonderful to follow their journeys, follow their stories, um, just understand more about their organizations and how the program is really helping them develop. So, you know, lots of really positive things came out of last year. Um, and then the extra dimension for last year was also that we, um, agreed with Middlesex University, that those who'd completed the level four sales executive program.

Could enter, use that as their entry qualification to come into year two of the B2B sales professional. So year two of the degree program and then top up their level four apprenticeship to be a level six apprenticeship in two years. Um, so we got all the kind of necessary due diligence and, um, validation from the university.

And started to recruit, um, some level four, uh, graduates, um, who are going to start their Level Six program, uh, first workshop tomorrow actually. So that is wonderful 'cause it's in apprenticeship week. I've had a couple of, uh, or been part of a couple of their induction and onboarding sessions and, um. You know, it's just lovely.

It's just lovely to think that we're helping these apprentices continue their sales development, their career development through a second, um, apprenticeship and that we've developed. And the ISP did support with this. They were really helpful. But we've developed this sales pathway now, career pathway from level four.

To level six. Um, and it's really gonna help set people up in a career for sales. So I am just really excited that it's happening. And tomorrow they'll have their first day at the university. So it's brilliant.

Phil: Mm, that's brilliant. It's brilliant. And I, I think that, I mean, could you give us an idea of how, how many people we currently have on the program now and how many people have graduated since uh, we first started?

Ah,

Louise: Ah, okay. So, um, on the level six program we have. Over 200 graduates since we started and we have about 174 maybe actually maybe just going into 180 on currently on program.

Wow.

Yeah. So, um, great numbers. Um, we have a real mix of mostly open cohorts,

Phil: Yeah. So could you explain what you mean by open cohorts?

Louise: Yeah. So an open cohort is when, um, we have a number of employers who have put apprentices onto the program. So we might have a really good mix of sectors. Yeah. And, um. Different kinds of Yeah. Uh, size of organizations, so SMEs as well as as large corporates.

So I think the learning for the apprentices on the open cohorts is kind of enhanced because they really hear what's happening mm-hmm. Um, in other organizations and um, and they always build up an amazing. Rapport as a cohort and continue to support one another.

So, um, there's a, there's a good journey for them all as they, you know, as they start in their open cohorts.

And we have some in-house cohorts, which again. Um, might bring in apprentices from different, um, divisions or different parts of the business.

Yeah, so again, there's still that learning, um, because again, nationwide, so they might be doing things differently or different parts of the business might be in different parts of the country.

So, um, that's an in-house cohort if they all come from the same, um, employer.

Uh, so that's our level six program, level seven. Um, I think, uh, smaller numbers, we have smaller cohort sizes for the level seven senior and we started later as well, didn't we? With level seven,

started don't have quite so many, um, sort of alumni,

No, no, no. Absolutely not yet. But again, the cohort sizes have continued to grow, which has been fantastic. Um, so I think it's about, um, 60. Maybe 55, 60 who've graduated.

And we have about 60 currently on program.

yeah, So, um, because the funding was stopped, we did have a cohort which started at the end of last year. Um, who will continue to be funded. Um, but that is the last cohort.

Phil: That's That's the last cohort. I know, I know. It's a sort of a sad moment. Um, could you talk through the success rates, because they've been pretty outstanding in terms of completion and, you know, I can't really impressed with the, not just completion rates, but the, you know, distinctions and the, the scores that we're getting.

Louise: From Yeah. yeah, no, it it, it is really rewarding. Um, so on both programs, so, uh, our B2B sales professional, um, we have a hundred percent. Success rate. Yeah.

Phil: So how do you define is that a hundred

Louise: they take the endpoint assessment, people might leave.

Phil: They might leave during the course of the program.

Louise: Yeah.

They might leave during the course of the program for different reasons. They either think sales isn't for them.

Um, personal reasons. Um, sometimes sadly they're made redundant and obviously if they're not employed and it's early on in the program, they can't continue. So we do have some people who leave the program, but those that take. The endpoint assessment, a hundred percent pass rate.

And um, I think for that, uh, program, we've probably got, I think I would say 68, 70% get a, a first or a two, one in their degree, but they've all passed their, uh, endpoint assessment. And our Level seven program. Same. Some people leave again for similar reasons, um, but if they've taken their endpoint assessment, we've had a hundred percent success rate.

Yeah. And, um, 87% have achieved a distinction in their endpoint assessment, which is just It's outstanding It is outstanding and I'm really, really proud of those results. But I think I'm more proud of. What they have achieved through the learning that they've taken from the programs. You know, that they really do continue, um, to use that learning.

Yeah. They take it forward into their careers. Um, they take it forward into their new roles. Quite often the level sixes are promoted as they complete, um, their endpoint assessment.

And, and certainly with those who've been on the senior sales leader program, they. You see how it's really helping them work with their teams, how it helps them collaborate more, um, with their teams, how they shift their leadership style to really help their teams develop that growth mindset.

You know, I think on both programs, we really, um, as you know, have reflective practice as a thread all the way through from day one to the end. And many people have just said how transformational that's been for them, that they can really look back and learn, share learnings, build on those learnings with different people, and then take it forward into the future and how they're gonna move forward.

So the results are brilliant, but actually hearing what they're doing with the learning is even more rewarding.

Um, yeah.

Phil: So roughly, 'cause I don't expect you to have all the biggest, how many companies are currently sort of putting their students through the apprenticeship preap?

What's, what's the number of organizations that, 'cause I'm, I'm going to. Talk a little bit later on about how well known is the apprenticeship program out there, but okay. How many, how many do we have that contribute to the 200,

Louise: uh, from day one to today and on both programs? I can give you a number. Okay. But if you started to ask me to split it, I think I'd struggle today. Yeah. I needed a bit more warning for, probably for, doing this. That's good. But, so we think it's about a hundred and, um, 70. Yeah. yeah.

From day one to where we are today, and we started delivering level six in 2018,

Phil: right at the very end, wasn't it? Of 2018.

Louise: So, yeah.

Okay. But when you, when you compare that to the number of companies that exist in the uk, it's still, it's tiny.

Phil: It's, tiny. It's, yeah. Yeah.

It's drop.

What's your thoughts about the awareness of the program? Because I think there's a sort of stigma attached a little bit to apprenticeships and whether you've got any thoughts about is, is that perception changing, do you think?

Louise: Yeah, no, the, the stigma to apprenticeships is, I think is history now, It's

Phil: history Yeah. Um, I think.

Louise: They're successful and people can see how they really help and people can see how, and this isn't just in our program. this is just generally, um, you know, just how starting your career on an apprenticeship really positions you well going forward. So you are learning and gaining work experience.

At the same time. I mean, that's the successful formula. So I think, you know, initially schools were not promoting apprenticeships. They are now, right? Mostly, yeah. Um, I think, um, you know, the fact that. Yeah. People can see it's a really good alternative, particularly higher education, where people are gonna either go to university with a loan Yeah.

Student loan, and they can now, you know, achieve that degree qualification. Yeah.

And as I say, get three years work at same time. So I, I would challenge that stigma now around apprenticeships. I think they are a success story. Yeah. I think they're people, many people.

Um, in fact, my brother who's, who's got, um. You know, uh, his daughter's, uh, what is she? 14. He was saying, everyone's telling me now I should be looking at apprenticeships. Yeah. I'm like, absolutely, you should. You know, so everyone, but it was just so nice. It was validating for me last week to hear that from, yes. From my brother. But, um, yeah, no. So that stigma was gone.

I think sales, there's still a stigma around sales, sadly, much as we try hard To really, um, you know, change that. And boy, have we tried hard. Yeah. You know, the establishing a degree, um, the ISP, you know, getting more of our, um, graduates and alumni to write amazing journals for different art, you know, articles for different journals.

We are trying so hard to make sure that sales can be perceived differently, but it's still, there's still that thing about it. It's all about money.

And, you know, that's. Kind of not a word we want to talk about, but um, yeah. So why is it just such a tiny drop? Um, I dunno. I don't know, Phil. We try hard

Phil: it's definitely much more known now than it, than it was, that's for sure, even seven or eight years ago, I would say.

But it's still, and it's surprising how many people you talk to, they still don't quite. You know, know that this opportunity is out there. Mm-hmm. Um, I, but, but particularly in the sales community, perhaps less so in the enablement community, who must be aware of apprenticeships and levy funding. But, um, uh, a lot of, a lot of people in sales, a lot of senior salesmen, I think still not quite aware of these programs can exist.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it doesn't come into their recruitment policy and strategy. You know, it's, it's handled by a different department, uh, oftentimes. Um, okay. Anyway, well, we're, we're, we're, you know, apprenticeship week hopefully will help, uh, broaden the, the knowledge about it all. Um, so, um, perhaps we could talk about this week and its importance and, and, um, you know, what, you know, what does a future look like for apprenticeships?

What sort of things are on the horizon?

Louise: Yeah. So, okay. First question this week and why it's important. It, it is a week to celebrate.

Yeah. Uh, apprenticeships. It's a week to celebrate people's, um, achievements through their apprenticeship programs. And I think, you know, to celebrate, um, training providers who are really helping to, yeah.

Um. You know, take people through their apprenticeship journey. Um, so there's lots of, lots of things to celebrate about this week and to promote, uh, apprenticeships. Um, there's lots of awards that happen, you know, so there's just an awful lot that goes on, um, all over the, the, you know, the country. So that is fantastic. Um, I think, you know, the future. Is changing for apprenticeships and um, as we know it will move to skills England

Phil: So what is Skills...? Skills England is an amalgamation of different government departments. I mean, what

Louise: So, IfATE was moved into Skills England and the, you know, the emphasis is now on the title: skills. So IfATE was institute for apprenticeship and technical education skills, England is really about are we getting the right skills to enhance productivity? Um, you know, and, and really encourage younger learners to take apprenticeships.

Hence the shift in funding from, uh, taking level seven away for over 20 ones, down to trying to recruit more young people into apprenticeships. I mean, I, I do struggle with that because if you bring in more young people, they need really good Managers, Managers and really good leaders. Yeah.

And I think that that's, um, you know, in terms of the skills, England have identified a number of. Um, roles and areas where they really want to focus attention. Um, and one of those is actually management. So you're kind of thinking, right.

What's happening there? Yeah. But, um, you know, they are wanting to, or they have announced that they will, um, bring in, uh, reduced. Duration for apprenticeships. of them can go, which is fantastic.

Absolutely fantastic. And also modular apprenticeships so that you don't necessarily have to continue learning over, um, the whole. Year or two years, you could do it in chunks, which again is very good. Right? Because I think sometimes, um, and particularly in in sales, you know, you have peaks and troughs in your year.

Yeah. So if you can time some of that learning to be in a, a quieter period Yeah. Perhaps not year end, you know, then that might be useful. But that's not applying to our programs at the minute. So Skills England have identified where they will, um, the standards that they want to bring that. Yeah. Chunking from, and that aligns to, um, the, the areas where I said they've identified there's a greater need to suit the needs of our economy at the minute.

So it could be more digital education or in health or construction. Yeah. So it's not, and they are at the moment identifying the standards that they will. Use for that

So not ours at the moment, no.

Well, also, as I say, senior leader's gone, but not, say not the B2B sales at the moment, but, you know, um, they are really looking again, at, um, how all, all standards are being assessed.

And they are gonna, they've committed to doing that by the end of August. So by September. Every standard that's in currently, you know, um. Existing will have been reviewed and they're looking at, um, different ways to achieve the assessment for that apprenticeship, which might mean doing some on program assessment, removing the endpoint.

So it's no longer gonna be endpoint is assessment to achieve the knowledge, skills, and behaviors. So lots of change. So the, you know, the goalposts are moving, so you've gotta be. We have to be agile. You know, everyone has to be agile. That's

working in apprenticeships in a minute. Um, you know, to make sure that we are, um, up to date with all these changes when they're happening, what's happening.

Um, and similarly with some changes to funding rules. So it's, um, yeah, it's, there's a lot going on, so we have to stay on our toes. Yeah.

Phil: Are there any developments at Talia do you think that will, we can talk about that will help fill the level seven gap that we're currently thinking of?

Louise: Well, as you know, we're looking at, um, a couple of, um, alternatives to try and, um, meet the needs of. Managers. Yeah. Um, it will be earlier career managers. Yes. Or, um, those who are moving into frontline sales, perhaps as management of frontline sales rather than the more senior leaders.

Um, but certainly we're looking for a, a standard that can meet those needs. And, um, uh, also, you know, we've had great, great feedback and success from our coaching modules and coaching programs, so that may be an alternative. So we are looking at what, what possibly could work.

right. Um, and you know, you and I have got a meeting in a couple of weeks to really try and talk that through in more detail. So Yeah, I'm, I'm excited that there's opportunities opportunities for us to fill that void that's been left by, um, the removal of the level seven funding.

And, um, I'm really excited that we have. The right content already once we decide which, um, which program we want to go with first.

Yes. Um, so yeah, big news to come, I think.

Yeah. Um, in terms of how we will continue to help the sales profession. Professionalize and help, um, help managers and leaders move forward.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: I saw a a a LinkedIn post uh, from someone in, in Holland, um, and it was quite a provocative post about sales, and he's arguing the case that sales can't be a profession.

Yeah. Because sales is a practice. Yeah. Now it is quite interesting because of course, if you look at the full title of our B2B sales degree. It's professional practice.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. In b2B selling. And so, uh, we do both have a degree and we have a standard and we have a practice. And the whole structure of the apprenticeships is based on, it's work based learning.

It's based on practice. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think it's quite, uh, it's quite, I'm going to look forward to responding to that particular post, but I think that what's so great about apprenticeships. Is the fact that it's, it's not theory. It's applied in the field and this is why it's so relevant for employers and it's so relevant for those eking out a career.

I can see you smiling, but, uh,

Louise: oh, do you know, I, I, I make a big thing about, um, our programs being, um. Having professional practice in the title. Yeah, Um, you know, and I really talk to, uh, apprentices about what that means and, and split it out.

Yeah. It's to help you become a sales professional. More professional. Yeah. 'cause many of them. Already are, you know? Yes.

So this is to help you be a, a, professional sales person, and then the practice is that applied learning.

Yeah. You wanna make sure that what you're doing is, is relevant and you know, you know, that the way we, um, encourage that to happen is through the work-based projects that they all have as part of their, um, their modules and their assessments. And what's so fantastic is that they're negotiated so that those projects really align to their role, their organization, opportunities that they see they can bring in to try and, and do something different.

So they are really working on, um. Yeah. On what's relevant to them and their organization with others.

So yes, it is practice, but by coming up with a new way of doing something Yeah. That's gonna help them work more, um, efficiently with their customers work, build better relationships with their customers.

Yeah. You know, the whole thing is about what we need to professionalize sales. Yeah. So that customers. Do think that they're getting that trusted advisor working with them. They can see that that's happening. They can see that the sales person is trying to come up with the right and best solution for them, a win-win for, for both organizations.

So professional practice is a wonderful way to describe what we do. Um, so I kind of agree with that, that comment, but it's still a profession, you know, because. Um, there are many professions now I, we call them contemporary professions. Yes. It's not kind of one of those traditional ones like lawyers or accountants or doctors.

But there are many professions now, um, which are contemporary sales being one, but the digital professions, consulting professions, sales is up there with them.

Phil: It is, And also talking to George about this very topic yesterday.

You have legal practices, you have accounting practices, you

have sales practices. So you've got, you know, both words associated with the profession. As well.

So, yeah. Interesting though. It's because I, I feel sometimes the way we talk or I talk about the apprenticeship, but you tend to shorten it to the B2B sales degree.

Yeah. But I think probably we should talk about the full title because it's so important.

Louise: It is so important. It is so important to have the full title and really emphasize it with, with everybody.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and the work applied. You know, we talk about work, applied learning, work-based learning, work related learning. It, it doesn't really matter which it is.

Yeah.

It means that their learning is linked to what they're doing in their Yeah. In their day job. And that is so fantastic. And, you know, we talk about, um, you know, there's kind of Aristotle's for that practical application, practical knowing, um, wise reasoning.

It's all about the more you learn in the job. The more you are going to be able to make wiser decisions, and I think that's what's so important.

Phil: Yeah. Very good.

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Phil: so Louis been a, yeah, it's obviously a big week. Are there any closing comments you would like to make?

Louise: So let's, let's start with apprenticeships as a whole, right?

I would really encourage people always to look at apprenticeships as a route into, um, a career. Yeah, absolutely. Um, whatever level there is something that's gonna be able to help you on that. Uh, take a stepping stone into a career.

But then if we think about obviously, um, our programs, you know, if you like. Working with people, if you like the marketing side, look at sales. You know, you're saying, how do we help more people become interested in sales?

It's appreciating that it's a career that goes across. Everything, isn't it? You know, people, finance, product development, you name it, it's exciting, it is innovative. So, um, you know, if people are listening to this podcast and thinking, what can I encourage my children to be doing? Um, think about sales.

It's a great career. It is a profession.

And, um, and employers, please know that our, our apprenticeships exist is really what I would say. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Well, not, not any do they exist, but like, as you said earlier, they, you know, the, the completion rates and the qualification rate, you know, standards are absolutely right up there.

Louise: Yeah. And a great set of transferable skills. So people really go on, as we've said before, yeah. and use them. So, yeah.

Okay.

Thank you, Phil.

Phil: Thank you, louise.

Louise: Okay,

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