#189 – Consalia Roundtable: New Year retrospective and look ahead

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Full episode transcript: 

​Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.

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Will: Hi, Phil. Hi, Jesus.

Phil: Hi. Will. Will.

Will: Hey, this is the very first podcast of 2026. And, um, we, we wanted to start the conversation off by just kind of taking a reflective look at how we felt 2025 went. Um, and so today we'll be having, you know, starting off with a bit of reflective discussion.

We'll also be talking about what the sales profession is facing in terms of some of the challenges that we ourselves are experiencing at Consalia, but also what we've hit heard, um, from our clients. We're also gonna be revisiting some of, um, Phil's predictions, which should be, uh, hopefully, hopefully quite insightful there.

And then yes, um, we'll be spending the majority of this podcast looking ahead at 2026. So, um, yeah, we hope you enjoyed this episode. But to start things off, let's, um, let's reflect on some of the key highlights, um, of last year. Phil, why didn't you start off the discussion?

Phil: Well, I, I think we've, we've had quite a number of, uh.

Sort of highlights of last year, I would say. Of course, we had, uh, Hayes joining us early in the year, uh, to head up the consulting practice. And, uh, I think, um, it, it, it was, uh, it's been very important for us to reflect back on part of our business, that that was the only part of our business when we first formed Consalia in 2006.

That that's all we did. And, um, with Jesus joining us with a, a kind of different mindset and different, uh, approach to, uh. Uh, the consulting profession. Um, it's, it's really helped us to completely sort of reposition what, what is meant by consulting, uh, within Consalia. So I, I would say it's been, you know, a big learning curve from Maes.

I'm sure you all talk about that, but I think from our point of view, it's also being a big learning curve. As we've started to, you know, put our hands around what this really means to cons consult you and how is it gonna benefit our clients, kind of moving, moving forward. But that's obviously for me, a big highlight.

Um, the other has been the revisiting of the global research project that we said we would do, uh, some 15 years after the doctorate research. And, um, it, it's been high a highlight because of the way in which we've gone about it and realizing the amount of data now that we've got to support the new report.

And it just shows how far we've moved, I think, since those early days. Of, of doing the analysis and trying to define what the mindsets were. We've now got so much more experience of the mindsets and, um, I'm pretty excited about the nuanced changes that the, the project sort of surfaced and announcing it at GST, uh, alongside, uh, the introduction of Aviso as just as a strategic partner with just, uh, an amazing way to finish.

I think what was quite a challenging, uh, quite a challenging year. I mean this, this in addition to, you know, the continued, uh, amazing success of the academy side of the business with the numbers of students now electing to come on the BSC program and, um. But sadly, with the demise of level seven, of course, uh, you know, the, we, you know, we've got our last cohort that started literally in December, uh, 2005.

So, um, yeah, I mean, it's a forever a changing field that we're having to deal with. But those are, these are, those are some of the highlights. I know there's probably others, um, that we could add, but for me, those three topics, uh, for me, some of the highlights.

Will: Yeah. And, um, I think it is, um, there's been some major, as you said, Phil, there's been some ma major shifts in how Consalia operates, which is very exciting.

Perhaps he, as you can elaborate on this a bit further, but before we, we do, um, just, just on your last comment, Phil, around, um, the level six apprenticeship, so over 200 current students going through a program at the moment. So I think the precise figure is 222.

Phil: Yeah.

Will: Um, but I was looking at, um, at all of our students that have enrolled on the program and

Phil: ah, yes.

Will: So since, since day one back in 2017, um, we've enrolled. Five, over 500. I think it's just shy of 600 students from the level six B, two B sales degree professional. Wow. Um, which is a huge, huge achievement and a testament to, you know,

Phil: yeah.

Will: Providing a really well structured thought out. degree apprenticeship for early careers.

Phil: Yeah.

Will: Um, for those starting out in sales, it, it's massive.

Phil: I think one and

Will: yes, as you,

Phil: sorry, one of the, one of the other highlights, 'cause we just, just picking up on that was the, the lifelong learning kind of approach. And I think we've had our first level six students that came on the level seven program last year as well.

You know, so some of those that, that came on the early stage level six, maybe in 2020, um, graduated in 23. Uh, we've since seen come on to the level seven, which is the management level masters. So, uh, you know, level program that we have. And I, I, I know that was a big moment when we recognized in the first cohort of module one, I can't remember which, it was with the leadership program that we had.

Our first students sort of progressed from level six to level seven.

Will: Yes. And, um, and yeah, as Phil rightly mentioned, you joining us, you've really shifted the needle, I think, um, not least in the way we talk about consulting now at Consalia. Um, I think in the past we had always, um, viewed consulting, um, as sort of bespoke training and development, um, which we still do, but we have, we've developed this consulting practice as well, um, leveraging all of your experience.

So has this, why didn't you say a few, um, a few words about that as well?

Jesus: Well, I think it has been an amazing year for me in Consalia, but you know, Consalia comes from, uh, uh, being a very trusted and well positioned business school in sales. And, uh, I think through the 25 we've started to do pure consulting in the sense of pure projects that address not just, uh, people development, but also people, organization, people, all the people, staff, culture, et cetera, uh, strategy, processes, even technology, right?

So I think we've started a, a journey, which is a journey. It's not something that is, uh, we, we, we add like, uh, another section in the website and then we, we just, uh, start to do projects, right? And, and it's coming, it's coming. There, there are some, uh, projects that are, uh, now in the, in the pipeline and some others being work.

But the other major thing I think we've advanced as well is trying to understand. What is the future and the strategy in terms of AI and technology for consent? Because as, as the, as all the world is evolving very rapidly with ai, uh, we see a lot of, uh, education institutions adopting AI in different form factors from coaching to, um, uh, making more research on, on, on, on papers by the uni.

So we, we see different models, different solutions, and uh, and I think we made, uh, you know, we, we, we've been for many years the, um, uh, the full leadership of sales as a, as a sales business school. So we had to have. The standpoint on what is the ai, what is the technology that, uh, we should be looking into for the future?

And that's the reason why we came back with, uh, with a partnership with ABI O, which is, uh, uh, an amazing AI technology platform, the revenue operations platform that, uh. It's like an end to end and, and is helping us to accelerate our journey through technology and through ai. Mm-hmm. Which by the way, we are developing jointly with them.

Our first is gonna be our first, uh, sales coaching agent power by AI from Avis. Right. And sales on the, and, and trained on sales mindset from, so that's gonna be something

Will: as this, you're giving away a lot of what we wanna talk about when we're, we're, we're talking about 2026 and looking ahead.

Jesus: Yeah. You know, we have

Will: some, some tease

Jesus: that, uh, yeah.

I cannot, uh, yeah, that's fine.

Will: Yeah, we'll, we'll certainly explore about it in, um, more in this episode 'cause it's a really exciting development that we're on at the moment. Um,

Phil: yeah.

Will: But can I just take us back quickly, if I may, to, when we look back at last year and we look at some of the challenges that Consalia faced, um, and sales as a whole, Phil, do you think, you know, do you think it was a good year, a, um, tough year?

How would you, how would you summarize it?

Phil: I think, I think last year for Consalia or for the profession as a whole, or? I think

Will: both.

Phil: Oh, for both. I mean, for Consalia, you know, like, so, so often you have some, you know, good things and you have some things that are holding it back a bit. And so I would say last year was, was, um, a, a pretty, a pretty tough year in some respects.

It started off, um, for us quite slowly, but it picked up pace as we got through the year. And so by the time we got through to, uh, December, we've ended up in a, in a, in a pretty strong position. But, and then I suppose one is never going to be entirely happy because, uh, you always want to do things a bit better than, than how you, how you ended up.

Um, I think from talking with clients, um, and maybe, maybe the two. Our performance and our client's performance levels are connected in some way. There's still a huge amount of uncertainty, you know, in the global markets, which has made organizations less confident to invest. And that, I think is a reason why, you know, the hesitancy in the marketplace faced by our clients being confident about the future of their businesses is affecting organizations like us to some extent.

Um, I think we've had an incredible, uh, sort of wave of AI focus, um, that started the year before last, but, but also came into this year. And I think what I began to kind of notice as we got through to the back end of the year, um, was this, uh, sort of. Eab, you know, establishing quite what is the role of the human in this sort of AI led environment in which we're working.

Um, and I know way back in January we decided on the human connection as far as GSD is concerned alongside ai. But, um, sort of I've, I've, I've sort of noticed, um, a, a sort of more commentary on the human connection. And, uh, I think that this is a reflection of, you know, it's coming out the other side of this great AI wave, you know, that people were almost like startled rabbits in headlights, you know, to begin with.

But people kind of, yeah, starting to learn more, make sense of how technology is going to help them moving forward. Trying to repurpose how humans inside organizations and what are going to work alongside AI and so on that. You know, that's just my, that's how I've seen last year still with the same geopolitical issues with, uh, you know, with, with Ukraine and and other sort of wars going on.

Of course, we had Venezuela situation happening, you know, since the new Year,this year. And also we have Iran, you know, which is erupting at the moment. So it looks like, um, we're going to continue to, to have to work within a geopolitical environment, which is very volatile and how that's going to impact on businesses moving forward.

Who, who knows. But, um, yeah, I think the VUCA world is with us for a long time.

Will: The VUCA world has been with us for nearly a decade now.

Phil: Yeah.

Will: It's the new, it is normal, right?

Phil: The speed of change,

is just so, so quick, isn't

it?

Will: Yeah, exactly. Jesus what do you think?

Jesus: Well, I think in 25 has been a rollercoaster, right?

That's the best, uh, word to describe it because it's, then we have the tariffs, then we don't have the tariffs, then we have the, uh, you know, the, the wars in Gaza in Ukraine. Now we have Venezuela, which is beyond Venezuela, because now people is talking about, Cuba is talking about the, the oil price. Is talking about many things, right?

Phil: Mm-hmm.

Jesus: So I think more and more we need to accept that this is, the status quo it's not something exceptional.

Right? So the rollercoaster will continue. 26 will be, will continue. Now, Iran, let's see what, what happens, right? So it's, we need, we need to, we need to. We need to, um, grow our mindset in a way where we feel confident within the depth of not knowing what's gonna happen.

Mm-hmm.

Jesus: Right. That's, that's difficult. Tactically and strategically speaking in the ai, I think, uh, we've seen a big wave, a big change. I mean, we are, I mean, we are quite fortunate. Once one, one side of me is saying, well, you're very fortunate to be living. Now with the AI moment, right? The other one is like, a bit like, okay, what's, what's the future gonna look will look like for our kids or for the right?

So because there are a lot of questions not answered, right? Like, uh, how AI is gonna be accelerating the change in the labor force. Specific roles in sales, in research, right? Uh, is there, is the AI giving return on investment or the ones that are having return on investment, that there are some, how they're doing it.

So I believe there is a wave of, so people at the beginning of 25, there were a lot of people still with excited about the AI and not really embracing it. And at the end of 25, these, these two groups are changing from, you know, from not embracing to, okay, AI may help me. Let's see, let's investigate, let's test.

Right. Um, I think we are learning on the journey and still there are no. Like consolidated answers to some of the key questions. But I believe that the leaders have started to move, experimenting, trying, et cetera, because, you know, uh, you need to, there are some things we need to be careful about with ai, but um, not doing anything on AI probably is not the right thing to do, uh, right now.

Right. So, yeah, so I think we see as well some in terms of client clients, we see that people want faster service, whatever it is, consulting, education, technology, and they're looking for measurable results, right? So everyone wants to measure what is the ROI of doing this or doing next, or doing why We see that AI is impacting heavily in education, in coaching, and many other topics.

I still believe that our sales mindsets, our approach to the human element is very important and. And when I hear about ai, and we hear a lot between a lot of experts, the human element and things like reflective practice and things like that are more and more increasingly important, right?

Will: Mm-hmm.

Jesus: So I believe that we need to find our place within the ai and the AI has to find the place into the human world and see how we can play together.

It's a, it's a team. It's a team work. I think.

Will: Yeah. So I mean, it sounds, it sounds like a lot of the challenges that we've described of last year are gonna be carried on into 2026. Um, which, um, yeah, so we should be very adapt then, uh, dealing with these sort of, uh, challenges. And we have developed our thinking to an extent, um, uh, than where we were before.

But I think, um, you know, going back to Phil, maybe what you were saying at the st at the start when you were painting the picture of a macro environment, you know, still a lot of uncertainty in the world, um, a lot of disruption in the world, um, there's been quite stagnant economic growth. As well. I would, you know, I want to say in the uk, um, and I think all of this just paints a, uh, an environment which makes it difficult for clients to make big and bold investment decisions into certain areas, into certain, you know, in, in directions they wanna take their organizations.

Um, and I know that we've had this debate internally when it comes to the practical, you know, considering this, considering the, you know, the rate of change with the advent of AI as, as you were describing, the. Unpredictability of kind of the economic landscape, um, perhaps lack of growth, um, for a salesperson then today, what, what advice, you know, what, what, what are the competencies that you would suggest that a salesperson need to be really honing their craft in now?

What's gonna be, what's gonna make you stand out? Um, in terms of Yeah, how you, how you meet and how you engage with clients considering what is quite, you know, we've lived through a challenging year, looks like 2026. We might be living through another challenging year. Um, what advice, what practical tips would you suggest?

Phil: Do you want me to take Sort

Will: of take, uh, you may take, it has, it is a, it is an open question to both of

Jesus: you. Yeah. Well, I'm happy to go after Phil, but if he wants me to start, I can start.

Phil: Yeah. I think that resilience is going to be, uh, you know, still hugely important in any kind of disruptive environment.

I think it is, you know, how can you become, uh, sort of more resilient? Um, and, and part of that is, is getting used to, you know, the new environment you're in. Um, but, um, I think sort of creating mechanisms of. Um, becoming more resilient will be a, a key, you know, hugely important because people are going to live through quite high levels of anxiety, and anxiety is going to cause stress and pressure.

So I think that what needs to create space to be able to sort of operate effectively as, um, to be able to stand back and reflect and think about the situation you're in. So I think resilience is, is, is hugely important. Um, I think personal productivity is key, you know, as well. I mean, there's so many amazing tools now that you can use to make what you do.

You, you know, you can do it in less time. You can do it. More productively. So I think, I think sort of becoming more and more familiar with how you can use AI to help achieve that technology, to help achieve that is going to be massive. I think in the sales world, it's, it's hugely important because, you know, the amount of time that you're gonna spend face-to-face with customers can be increased potentially by the way in which you're using the ecosystem around you to, uh, sort of free up tasks that could otherwise be, be kind of automated.

Um, uh, the, the, um, we, we've sort of defined as part of our global research project, you know, we defined, um. A, a, a nuanced form of authenticity, which we're now calling intellectual authenticity as being a defining differentiator of the sales mindsets. And I think that, uh, what AI enables you to do is, is give you access to information and intelligence.

What intellectual authenticity will do is start to bring in the sort of creative thinking, personal creative thinking into how you can solve problems, how you can get, uh, sort of better results for your clients, for your customers. So I think that, um, I think that the, the focus kind of moving forward is to say, um, what are the, what are the key skills do we need to develop as a, as a sales professional?

It's, it's, it, it's gonna be less focused on knowledge, because knowledge is contained out. There is gonna be more, more cont, more focused around how you use information, which is going to then be this personal connection with data and information, asking the right questions, getting the right answers, knowing which tools you can use to help get to your solutions quicker.

I think for me, these are going to be some of the, the key, uh, kind of skills. I, I think it's an exciting time for salespeople. The amount of time that it takes you now to do research, to ask questions to is, uh, is just extraordinary. I mean, so there's no real excuse not to do the research and to, to get the information.

And then it's a question of then using your creative thinking skills to say, how can I use this information to get to, you know, sort of where we need to go. There's probably other things that are important, but, you know, I've just mentioned a few.

Will: Any any holes or gaps, heus that you've identified? And Phil's answer there if you wanna,

Jesus: you're asking, do you want has a No, of course not.

I'll just do a fine tune of that. So I, I think, uh, you know, when I see, uh, across my life, uh, different situations. Uh, it's like a kind of a theory, right? So there are some like basic elements, right? And sometimes things change, but the basic elements that underneath are the same, right? So if we think about the sales mindsets, authenticity, client centricity, product, creativity, and that flow, audacity, it doesn't matter.

We have the most advanced AI system in the world now, or the best process in the future. In five years, they will be still there, but hopefully, because hopefully, uh, the buyer will still be a human, right? Things will change if the buyer is not a human, which maybe in some areas will, will start to happen.

So I think still I fully agree with Phil resilience and, and not, so you need to have some kind of, um, explore exploration, DNA. Right. So this kind of appetite to explore new things and to try new things and fail, and fail fast and, and find something that works. Because if you don't have that, your competitor is gonna be having that, right?

It's not a matter if you want to do it or not, it's that your competi competitors, some competition is gonna be doing it. Uh, but you have to keep loyal to the basics, which is these four elements, right? These four sales mindsets. So I believe that if you are still, if you have a little disadvantage of how you use AI or how you research, but you keep your four uh, sales mindsets to the highest possible, potentially you're gonna be scoring better still.

Right. Mm-hmm. But you, you, you have to navigate through this world where people will try to improve their sales mindset and will try to improve their productivity and to in, and their, their capabilities. Right? So I was, I was, when we having, uh, these sessions with, uh, Aviso, I had a, a very interesting question for the CEO of ASO is like, what happens if, okay, you have your great technology, you have your best technology.

What happens if you and your competitor to your client and the competitors, the client's competitor have the same technology? Then it's the human, the, the differentiator between both is the human right and this is what we have to invest on. So that will be my,

Phil: mm-hmm.

Jesus: My takeaway. I dunno if, uh, Phyllis having a face, like, I dunno if he's agreeing with this or not.

Yeah.

Will: I'm just thinking,

Jesus: you know, I saw it when I was in Accenture every two years they change the, you know, in the strategy practice, they change, uh. You know the framework. Yeah. Right. Every two years. But as, as you are getting more senior, you get to recognize that the basic elements of the framework is the same.

It's just some kind of marketing thing. Right. So I see the a AI and the technology, I mean, it's still, it's still technology, right? It's, it's a computer. It's like a ones and zeros. It's not, yeah. Has not a soul. It's not, it's not a human. Right? So for the moment, we have these things separated. So we have, we, we put our value in the world, right?

Well, uh, there are a lot of, uh, theories when the A GI and the super agi, I will be, but it's not achieved yet. So forget about that. It will come, but it's not for the next 2, 3, 4 years. Right? So let's focus on the human element and, and how to make it, uh, really differential. 'cause at the end, yes, today's vis o maybe the competitor Hasso or another tool.

So may people will have like very advanced research, AI, power, blah, blah. But at the end, the, the, the, the, the differentiation factor is the human.

Phil: Yeah.

Will: I think, you know, um, just going back to the, going back to my question, which is like, what are the. What are the different, I guess, um, how can you convince a client to buy in this world? That is where it's quite challenging, right? And yes, efficiency, productivity, um, all of this hugely matters. The human differentiation hugely matters.

Um, but from what I've experienced with our clients is, um, constantly referring back to this need of ROI, which is you is, which is what you mentioned Heus earlier as well. It's, it's, you know, it seems to me that there are more people taking in an interest of, okay, if we are investing in leadership development, what's gonna be the ROI on that?

Um, so for Consalia and that, that can be quite a challenging, um, thing to prove. Say the focus is on leadership development. So you want them to develop those knowledge, skills and behaviors, um, in order to, uh, unlock potential of their sales team. And so you need to try and, you need to try and, um, develop a sort of ROI playbook almost to say that if we, um, train this person on all these competencies, then you should see an uplift in sales.

And uh, I think that's something that time and time again, you know, we are being asked like, how do we prove the ROI? Um, and again, I think people are wanting results. They want them quickly, they want quite sharp interactions. Um, but yeah, and to be able to prove the value to. The CFO? No, it is just something that I've, I recognize over the course of last year and, and

Jesus: I think, we'll, you

Will: know,

Jesus: moving in this year, think talking about, before talking about the ROIs, like the living and logging indicators, right?

So, uh, everything starts with the needs and the understanding of the needs of the customer. And uh, and uh, and, and I think Phil was saying, uh, uh, a few weeks ago, something like, one of the major problems that the sales professionals have is that they don't listen simply like that. Right? And I think it's like sometimes, uh, sales professionals come to sell their products instead of listening about the needs, the real needs of the customer.

So when you, when you, when you hear the needs and understand the needs completely, then you go back to your company and try to get a solution that responds to their needs is when. You maximize the potential ROI of of whatever you're selling, right? Yeah. But I think we should start back, not just thinking about how you measure ROI to this.

Yeah. There are measures that have potential, they will take some time because we are talking about changing people, not changing like a system or something like that. But uh, but I think we need to step back to what, what is this kind of needs requirements now, Phil?

Phil: Well, uh, again, coming back to the Global Research Pro, uh, project that we did, I think less than 30% of people.

Are selling in a way that buyers want. Um, and, uh, a lot of the reasons for the low figure is to do with relevance, listening, understanding the buyer's needs, being client centric, not supply centric. Uh, things that, that we've uncovered, uh, sort of o over the years. Um, but of course when, when economic times get tough, the financial component becomes more important.

Uh, which is I think point will you are kind of making is that having this commercial acumen is going to perhaps raise. Up a few bars. So when you are doing the listening, when you're doing the qualification, you know, you've got an eye on this. How am I going to quantify and measure, you know, through our solution the benefit?

And that, that, that comes back to, you know, again, asking the right questions. Uh, from my experience, quite, uh, relatively few pe uh, salespeople really understand how to put ROI, uh, sort of arguments together. They don't understand concepts of internal rate of return, uh, for example. Um, so this is clearly a, an important skill, uh, perhaps elevated, you know, because of the situation we're in.

But one of our students has come up, something I know we're going to build on this for GST this year is this concept of return on innovation. So the, the return component is very much the investment side. What, what investment payback we are going to get on investment, meaning compared to what we're spending the nuance to.

ROI, um, which I think is, is really interesting is what return on are we going to get on innovation? So in a market which requires you to change so much and to respond, you know, innovation is be gonna become really important for clients. So, uh, just that shift in qualification, for example. If you're gonna go into a, a qualification meeting with someone with ROI, in the traditional sense, you're going to be asking a set of questions to demonstrate, you know, cost, which is the cost of your solution, which is the investment that your client will need to make from it.

This is a supplier centric approach. Uh, return on innovation is a customer centric approach because you're looking at how your solution is gonna help your client innovate in the marketplace. And the innovation could come from helping the client reduce cost, or improving revenue or improving margin could be one of those areas.

So I think, um, I think that this whole concept of ROI I think we could have some fun with, uh, this year and, and actually look at. How do we, how do we help, uh, the conversation move from ROI traditional to ROI future? Yeah.

Jesus: I think the, the key is the ROI for the client, not for the sales professional, right?

Or the company, the seller company.

Phil: Yeah. But it's, what does the, I stand for? Is it investment or innovation? But the key is, is always the customer, isn't it?

Jesus: It is always the customer. And I think if you talk to the CFOs, they will say, no, no, it's cash, it's investment. Right? But,

uh,

Phil: I, I disagree with that actually.

I, I think, no, I think that, and again, we've interviewed quite a lot of, um, uh, you know, people from the finance side. And these are not just looking at cash, they're looking at relevance. You know, they're looking at the business impact. So, yes, of course they need to look at budgets and cash. But they also need to look at what is the bus business benefit as well.

So I think, um, changing the conversation to, uh, sort of ROI innovation, uh, you're still talking about return, which is the finance side. You know, you, you're covering both worlds return, meaning return on cash invested, but on innovation. What change is this gonna make?

Jesus: Yeah.

Phil: So if we're looking at a visa, it's, what's the return on innovation By, by subscribing to a, an Avis solution.

I dunno.

Will: Brilliant, interesting concept, Phil, and I think you are giving away an early teaser to a potential topic for GST,

Phil: uh, correct.

Will: Correct. Okay. So on that note, so GST we are planning on GST for 2026.

Phil: Of course. Yeah,

Will: of course. Brilliant. So you heard it here first, it's we just need to lock in a date and then

Phil: yeah, we need to lock in a date.

Um, you know, sad thing we learned last year was that the stock exchange is going to be knocked down in London or refurbished and

Will: yeah,

Phil: we've been there for I know, 20 times or how, however many it was and, and, uh, we're gonna have to find somewhere else, uh, that's got the same feel to it. Um, but yeah, definitely.

Um, we are looking at, um, at developing on this theme of return on innovation for GST. Um. Uh, thanks to, you know, work of some of our students on the Masters. You know, for me, this is the beauty of the master's program. It, you know, fuels innovation into the sales profession and this would be a, just a fantastic example of doing that.

So, I'm, I'm really excited by it.

Will: And if anyone's listening and have a recommendation, uh, recommendation in terms of venue, uh, that feels similar to the London Stock Exchange, uh, then please do let us know. 'cause uh, we are currently doing our research at the moment. So, okay, so 2026 GSD Return on innovation could be a theme, but, um.

I guess I wanted to kind of segue a little bit in terms of some changes that are happening at Consalia. I think we touched on it. So we're, unfortunately, we're no longer able to, uh, deliver the level seven apprenticeship program due to the government funding changes. Um, but on a more positive note, I do also know that the Academy team led by Louise.

Is looking at, um, looking to develop a different apprenticeship program, um, that could be suitable for sales leaders or those in a sales profession. Um, and I guess more information to come, but this is in development, right? Phil? I dunno if you've got anything else that you wanted to sort of,

Phil: I, I think the, yeah.

The likely, um, solution is going to be probably shorter programs. Yeah. Uh, maybe not to level seven, but maybe to level five. Yeah. But aimed at. Senior level sales professionals, either key account managers or, or sales managers.

Will: Yeah.

Phil: Um, so, uh, the benefit is that levy funding can still be used for them. It's a shorter spent space of time, which could be a benefit to others.

And poten potentially we can cover different subject matter areas as well. But Absolutely, uh, it's, yeah, it's sad that level seven opportunity is going. I think it's, uh, a mistake that's been made by the government in this area, but it's on the upside. We're looking forward to the new programs that will emerge this year and,

Will: and, um, we are, we still do deliver the masters and the PG search.

Yeah,

Phil: it's

Will: that sit it sits outside of the funding through apprenticeships, but it's purely targeting leaders, sales management. Yeah. Um, and we've been running this program every year since 2013. If, uh, so, you know, if there is a need, um, there are options unfortunately at this stage, not levy funded options.

Um,

Phil: yeah.

Will: But yeah, on the topic of apprenticeships, we are about to launch a February level six cohort. Um, and in the summer we are launching two level six cohorts and, uh, based off demand, we've already filled out one of them. So, um, so yeah, the level six continues to drive early career sales professions, um, which is fantastic.

But I guess the question now is really over to, uh, I think, which is, you know, when, when you are looking at the year ahead, um. What are your sort of areas of focus? Uh, you've spoken a lot about Aviso. Um, I know there's some exciting developments on the horizon. Um, but yeah, maybe you could touch, um, touch base on that.

Jesus: Yeah. I would say that what we see, uh, from a lot of conversations with customers is that more companies are, uh, starting to use software as a service, AI power tools like Avis, right? So there is a shift, uh, to keep pace with the competition. Uh, some of the companies are trying to somehow develop some in-house AI powered solutions.

So they are very specific and tailor made. I think this could represent a disadvantage on the long run. But the short story long, I mean the long story short, sorry. I was, it's like, uh, the long story short is that, um, we see a shift in companies that are using traditionally Salesforce, Microsoft Dynamics, or even in the HR space, like, uh, success factors, right?

So it's not just a sales, um, wave that we're saying how to embed AI, uh, power capabilities into their solutions. Um, so for us, the focus is gonna be continue working with Aviso. I can say that there are two large companies, European companies, that are about to start a pilot very soon. And pilot means, yes, technical pilot, but before jumping into the technical pilot, we need to, as a consultancy, as a sales consultancy, including pure consulting, plus also education, we need to help those companies to get ready for that moment.

Right. Because some of them are not ready in, in whatever kind of feature, right. Or kind of, um, uh, area. So we are, we are, we are working quite hard to. Create op joint opportunities with aviso, uh, through the technology of Aviso, but also jumping into how to adapt the sales force and the team and the organization, the culture to this new change where it's meant to be a hybrid work where some of the tasks will be, uh, given by the ai.

Some of the tasks will be still on the human element and, and empowering or, you know, increasing the time in front of customers as Phil was, uh, teaching before. Right? We think that the, the AI is gonna be helping on repetitive tasks, complex multidisciplinary research and preparation coaching, real time AI advisor will be probably the core focus for 2026.

I don't see fully autonomous agents being deployed at scales yet, right? I think this is something that, uh, will require much more than one year. Um, and as I say, this hybrid processes. It will touch all the elements, it will touch the strategy, it will touch the processes, the people, and the technology. So that's where we see, uh, us working on, um, in terms of government and regulation.

We see that there is a, a big progress on, I mean, uh, now the governments are accelerating. We have a new European Union AI Act, and I think UK is following the same way as well. So I think we will start to see more of this, which means that the industry and the use of AI in sales is gonna be towards a standardization, right?

So that's, that's, that's gonna happen as well. So I think this is gonna be our core focus. We are gonna be, um, as we teased on the, on the global, uh, sales transformation event, uh, in, in November last year, we are working very hard to get our fast. AI power Solution Ready, which is coaching agent trained on the sales mindsets under Aviso technology.

And, uh, we hope that we are potentially launching this agent in Q2 this year. So very, and we will prepare some, uh, private events, uh, inviting potential customers or leads that might be interested on, on, on seeing the solution firsthand, right. So we, you'll know more about that patient and I think this is, uh, gonna be probably our core focus for the next months.

Uh, will.

Will: Yeah. Well, it's hugely exciting, not least to, um, get involved in terms of how organizations position. AI for their sales team. And a platform like Aviso can influence everyone's role from a CFO all the way to kind of a frontline sales person, um, to improve for what you were talking about. Um, productivity, um, efficiency and effectiveness are the, are the things that I hear a lot when I hear, uh, Vizo being described.

Um, but it, it, it is really changing the conversations that I think we're having has us. And I think, um, I think that's really is. Is really interesting. Um, just from, you know, from your perspective, um, do you think that, you know, certainly as we move into 2026, do you feel that organizations are, um, sort of ready now to implement, uh, solutions such as aviso or AI solutions?

Or do you think there's, you know. From your experience, do you think there's a step before that happens that you wanna, you know, that it's important that organizations need to consider things?

Jesus: Rev is a very strong word, very strong. I think. I think what we hear from, they, they know they have to do something on ai.

Some of them, they don't know what, some of them, they've done their own research and they've seen, okay, they've identified tools like Aviso that is the right one and certain, certain parts of the tool, not probably all the tool. Um, some of the ones are trying to investigate internally. I mean, this depends on the culture of the company, the appetite to experiment, to be the first mover or to be one of the first movers, or being a fast follower.

So the cultures are different, uh, depends on budgets as well. And how seriously this is taken. So I see some companies saying we need to investigate on Avis, or sorry, on technology, on ai, but they're not dedicating the right team, the right budget at the right focus at the senior level. So that's difficult that this success succeeds.

Right? So I think ready is a very strong word. I don't see, even, even when I've, I've been speaking with, uh, customers that have been running aviso, so it's a cutting edge AI power technology for the last, let's say 12 months or 18 months. And, and they are still, yeah, they're, they're using it, they're getting the advantage, the, the, the quick wins and the benefits, but they're still, you know, working with the sales force to see how they work in this hybrid mode.

Right. How to get. The best out of the technology because it's like if you have a Ferrari, right? Maybe you have or, or a, or, or an As Martin. A Martin. So you have the best car, one of the best cars in the world. But if you are, you don't know how to drive it, then you cannot maximize it. Right? So it's the same thing.

You, you, we have amazing cars, some of them, uh, but uh, you need to get people to know how to work with it. Right? So I think Ready is to get ready is the journey where we are now trying to help many customers, right. Even, uh, by curiosity. This week we were consulted by, uh, one of our partners, uh, in, in Spain.

He's working with a major huge, uh, insurance company and, and they're getting into the AI for hr. They're in the same position. They have these solutions that come like as a software, as a service that come from five, 10 years ago, sometimes super customized. And, and, and they need to, they need to move into the ai, but the old technology all 10 years of years.

But it's, it's difficult that if they move to the AI space because they were not engineered with AI in the core. And this is, this is not, you know, it's not AI by design and new solutions are coming now AI by design that have been working on, uh, machine learning and AI for the last five, 10 years. And they're taking a good positioning within the, this, all these quadrants and, and, and best technology to, to, so it is, it is a big shift, right?

And, uh, and there is no, uh, single golden solution response to. What to do when you have a challenge, right? So that's the reason why it's a lot of, uh, try and fail, try and succeed. And, and I think we should, uh, of course in, in, in, in a controlled environment. But we should, we should, uh, get more into this, which, which, which is very, very, very aligned to this book, uh, and, and rollercoaster description we were talking about before, right?

Will: Mm-hmm. Phil, I know you've been, um, really working on developing the one AI agent. Through on the Aviso platform and

Jesus: release our brain behind the brain.

Will: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I just wondered, well, that, 'cause this is, um, you know, obviously you've been coaching for a very long time. Um, coaching is part of our DNA in Consalia, um, to now to now see an agent, an AI agent that can coach and is, you know, being trained by you at the moment, um, how's that whole experience been?

And you know, what's, what's your takeaways from it and, um, yeah, any kind of insights you can, you're willing to share.

Phil: Well first, first of all, if you'd asked me in January last year would I be coaching an AI agent, you know, on Consalia mindsets, I, I, you know, it just wasn't on the radar, was it? I mean, we had been talking about the Consalia brain at an early stage, and it's accelerated, um, fast with this, uh, with the relationship with Aviso.

And, you know, thanks to Arthur Zilberman for, for facilitating that one of the longtime supporters of Consalia and also the initiatives his has taken in, in this area. Um, what I found really interesting, what I, it was, um, it sort of how do you train an agent to accurately define conversations in a way that's through the lens of the mindsets.

Yeah. Um, and. Interestingly, it sort of taken me back to the previous GST with Lizo, if you remember. She was the way that she analyzed conversations and, uh, for negotiation skills, you, you, you analyze what's called terms. You have a buyer saying something and a seller saying something, a buyer seller, you may have these terms.

And essentially, um, I find myself doing what Liz was doing with negotiation, but now doing it for the sales mindset. Um, and the first thing is, can you train an agent to accurately, um, assess which mindset is being used at any point in the conversation? So that's been for me, number one. Um, and the way, yeah, it's been a, it has been a real revelation for me to.

Uh, to see. We started off with, uh, made up conversations, uh, which weren't really authentic enough for us. We then started to work on live conversations, and that's really interesting because you see all the nuances, uh, of conversation, the uns, the earth, the okays, and you have an agent that that's, uh, sort of giving a commentary on sometimes fairly subtle communication techniques.

Um. So, uh, yeah, so I've really found it fascinating to go through the process and impressed, actually really impressed with, uh, the accuracy levels, you know, that I'm, I'm beginning to see, so we're, we're looking at accuracy levels of 90% plus, you know, because if you can't define the mindset, you can't, you shouldn't really coach.

And that, that's the core element, the foundation. So yes, I've been working a bit with Libby as well, our lead designer on, on sort of looking at what the agent says, comparing it to what we think is appropriate and getting, uh, towards that 90 figure. Not quite there yet, but it's been an absolute, uh. It's been really interesting to work with the tech guys in India on this, and, uh, and I hope very soon, uh, we'll get to a point where we're comfortable enough with the accuracy and then it's going to be, well, how can you then take that analysis in a coaching sense and, and sort of create a co you know, sort of coaching interventions.

I think we're pretty much there, but what, what I found interesting about this is the scale that can be achieved on this. You know, typically we may get involved in coaching, uh, just snippets of interventions, uh, typically on large deals because otherwise, you know, clients of ours won't ask us to do a coaching intervention around the mindsets, but.

You know, working with customer success teams as, as was mentioned by Jesus, I think earlier on. You know, you, you literally have got thousands of conversations taking place every single week, every day with clients sometimes, and you're able to get an idea of, um, the extent to which the positive versus the negative mindsets are going, uh, are being used.

And that's going to give you the chance to coach, but also to refine the mindsets, to get data about, you know, what's the correlation between the mindsets that we see our customer success teams are using and retention. And ROI, there's so much stuff that will come from it that I'm really, really excited about and I, I think that this is going to be a huge step in the evolution of the kind of products that we.

You know, the way our intellectual property is being able now to be used in coaching and performance. So it's incredibly exciting.

Jesus: I think, I think I've enjoyed this, uh, journey a lot, uh, looking into Phil's, uh, perception about how the technology was evolving. Right. And, uh, I think on, on one of the last, uh, because you know, in, in AI there are two key elements.

One is data and instructured data, and the other one is, uh, uh, the training, right? So, uh, if, if, if you get more training, you get more accuracy and better, right? So I, I've seen a change in, in, in some of the Phil's feedback when, oh, it's, he starts to, to feel better with the technology. So a, a, a question to you, Phil, do you think we'll get like a PhD grade?

So can we just, uh, graduate the agent on a PhD for sales mindsets? Do you think we'll arrive to that point?

Phil: Well, we did, uh, jokingly talk about whether or not we could put an agent through our master's program. Yeah. Uh, and so, uh, and, uh, get a qualification. It may be that we'll get to that stage at some point in time, but yeah, we could, uh, we could get, uh, that's, that's an interesting one.

I, I haven't quite got there yet, but I think for us, it, we've always been kind of driven by, does the question, does it work? You know, and this is what's taken us into the sales education space so strongly.

Will: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, and I think that philosophy that we have carried through to the trading of the AI agent.

I think, uh, I'm beginning to see the benefits of it. It's the reason why I've personally got so involved in this project, um, because I wanted my, I wanted to see it myself, you know, being used. Yeah.

Jesus: Yeah. We are in the final stages of development. It has been amazing. I mean, one, one of the most intense part of the development is, as you may imagine, the, uh, the training of the agent, right.

To, to, yeah. To make the, the brain and work to, uh, properly. But then the use cases that open this is to, for the sales professionals, the sales leaders, uh, you know, offline, online, with customer conversations. I mean, it's like, it's like a lot, right? Yeah. So, uh, that's the reason why stay tuned people and we'll announce hopefully soon.

Yeah. And we'll launch that. We want to launch in Q2. Definitely.

Will: Well, I was going to say has us one, one of the, um, sort of key things we're doing first off this year is, is sort of running breakfast briefings and getting people, um, in the room to see, you know, not just the Aviso platform, but to see the ai, ai, ai sales mindset coach, um, to explore what it can do.

And I think as soon as we have had the dates and, you know, we'll be, yeah, we'll be delighted for those who are interested to come and join us.

Jesus: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we'll have a lot of interest. Yeah.

Will: So, yeah. And then just finally, I mean, we've spoken, you know, we've spoken quite at a high level, I think around Aviso, around the AI agent.

We've spoken a bit about our ambition for, um, the apprenticeship. Side in the business school. Um, but from my point of view, no one's asked me any questions. Yeah. As head of sales or Consalia, you know, beyond what you guys wanna do, um, you know, I'm really keen, you know, mentioned. Mentioned briefly, level seven's dropping.

I'm so keen to start a cohort for the PGE cert. Um, and we're thinking really creatively about how do we structure the PG cert in a way that if you have a, you know, personal allowance in your company, sponsor you in that sense, how can we enable that?

Jesus: Will, I think it's good for the audience because maybe some people don't know the pg c What is, it's like a fast track of the master, is it what maybe

Will: you Yeah, so sorry.

A pg c is three modules of our master program. So it is a, it is an accreditation, it's accredited by Middlesex University. It is exactly the same as the first three modules that you would do if you were to go on the leading sales transformation masters program. So it's a very quick. Way of getting a postgraduate certificate from Middlesex University.

Now, if you wanted to go on to do a diploma or a master's, you can do, um, but we thought, you know, just as a, just a, as a starting point, because a, a full master's program is expensive. It's very considered, it's a two year program, you know. A PG search can be d can be done I, you know, slightly within a year.

Um, and it's a very affordable option. So it is something that I'm really keen to get going this year. Um, you know, we still are gonna be delivering our exec masters programs as well, so we, we deliver one cohort per year, so, you know, we're adding to that. Um, and then of course our, our bespoke, you know, what we had traditionally called consultancy.

Um, our bespoke training is something that I'm, you know, coming into 2026. I'm, I'm very excited about, um. As we look at, you know, the pipeline, I think we've developed something like five times as much pipe as we did the previous year. So I'm hoping that means that 2026 is gonna be a good year for Consalia, but as we know, things, things do change and we should expect change and, you know, plan accordingly.

Um, but some of the projects that we, um, have already closed in January, Phil, I'm sure you are happy to hear that, um, takes us into slightly new areas, um, and it is gonna provide a source of innovation for us. And so, yeah, very excited about that too.

Jesus: Yeah, I think, I think on the, uh, adding 2 cents on the PE C and the masters.

Uh, because we have customers from many, many places in the world, right? It's not just UK and, and some of the That's right. Customers doing the SAP or the ER are from Germany, from different countries. So, um, so yeah, I invite everyone to just look into it, right? Because, uh, it's, it's something that. Uh, as Willie saying, his, uh, accreditation by uni, uh, gets, uh, the three best, I mean the three initial models from the masters you can create and time consuming is much less than a master.

So you get all the benefits, right.

Phil: yeah, there's another, another thing that, uh, sort of under underpinning the PG cert and the Masters is, um, is, is publications. And we've had, over the years, we've had various of our students contribute to the sales profession by having work published in books and sometimes in academic papers.

Uh, but something that, uh, we are doing in partnership with our Korean partner. Is launching a new journal. Uh, this is quite big in the world of sales, mainly within the academic community, but it's gonna lead to more research, is that we've just received from the British Library. The, the, the, the legal context, if you like, the, um, the number that's given to the academic journal to be able to launch it.

Um, so this year will be the launch of a new journal of of international sales management. Um, and it's going to be an opportunity for our students to have their work published academically if they want to. But it means that the PhD students that are gonna come through, many our Korean partners studying sales, um, have a distinct publication to have their, their, their PhD projects published in, in the paper as well.

So yeah, it's um. It's, uh, another small step, I guess in this whole vision that we have of helping to professionalize sales, which I'm very excited about. And have to thank the Institute of Sales Professionals also, um, for supporting this concept as well. But more, more on that launch will happen probably at the end of Q1 into Q2.

Will: Fantastic. Okay, well, on that note, and I'm conscious of time, it is over the hour and we try and keep these episodes to

Jesus: Yeah,

Will: an hour. Um, thank you so much, Heus. Thank you so much, Phil. Um, you know, let's see how this year goes. I'm sure we'll check in halfway through.

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